Comments on: Griffin and Irving in Oxford http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2007/11/26/griffin-and-irving-in-oxford/ Thoughts of Antonia, Labour activist and feminist in Oxford Thu, 20 Nov 2008 23:44:23 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: epsilon http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2007/11/26/griffin-and-irving-in-oxford/#comment-256092 epsilon Wed, 05 Dec 2007 19:12:24 +0000 http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2007/11/26/griffin-and-irving-in-oxford/#comment-256092 I read elsewhere that the Union has banned the academic Norman Finklestein from an Israel-Palestine debate; which has had the effect of most of the other speakers duly withdrawing from it. Antonia doesn't set guidelines as to what is 'freedom of speech' apart from recognising, as most sane individuals do, that pure freedom needs restraint and equity. But it appears that the Union thinks that it can. I read elsewhere that the Union has banned the academic Norman Finklestein from an Israel-Palestine debate; which has had the effect of most of the other speakers duly withdrawing from it.

Antonia doesn’t set guidelines as to what is ‘freedom of speech’ apart from recognising, as most sane individuals do, that pure freedom needs restraint and equity. But it appears that the Union thinks that it can.

]]> By: rossparker.com » Blog Archive » Trotgimps http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2007/11/26/griffin-and-irving-in-oxford/#comment-251238 rossparker.com » Blog Archive » Trotgimps Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:57:53 +0000 http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2007/11/26/griffin-and-irving-in-oxford/#comment-251238 [...] Luke Tryl, the current Union president, has more courage. He stuck to his guns through media pressure and invited David Irving and Nick Griffin to a forum on free speech on Monday. The professional outrage and protest groups – lovingly known in my day as trotgimps – were out in force. As you would expect, the loudest bleaters were the self-appointed leaders of the black and Jewish ’student communities’, militant lesbians, communists of OUSU and the regional TUC. I hear that Conservative MP Julian Lewis has resigned his Union membership over the affair – the opportunist. Thankfully, some people still stick up for free speech: Liberal Democrat MP Evan Harris, Jewish journalists and Muslim students among them. [...] [...] Luke Tryl, the current Union president, has more courage. He stuck to his guns through media pressure and invited David Irving and Nick Griffin to a forum on free speech on Monday. The professional outrage and protest groups – lovingly known in my day as trotgimps – were out in force. As you would expect, the loudest bleaters were the self-appointed leaders of the black and Jewish ’student communities’, militant lesbians, communists of OUSU and the regional TUC. I hear that Conservative MP Julian Lewis has resigned his Union membership over the affair – the opportunist. Thankfully, some people still stick up for free speech: Liberal Democrat MP Evan Harris, Jewish journalists and Muslim students among them. [...]

]]> By: jdc http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2007/11/26/griffin-and-irving-in-oxford/#comment-250709 jdc Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:17:27 +0000 http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2007/11/26/griffin-and-irving-in-oxford/#comment-250709 Yes, it should also be noted that those protesting against the speeches just had a sit in and a little shout and so on. Those opposing the protest have already put photos of the protesters on RedWatch, so that the far right can seek them out and 'persuade them with the force of their arguments' or whatever exactly they do. Yes, it should also be noted that those protesting against the speeches just had a sit in and a little shout and so on. Those opposing the protest have already put photos of the protesters on RedWatch, so that the far right can seek them out and ‘persuade them with the force of their arguments’ or whatever exactly they do.

]]> By: donpaskini http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2007/11/26/griffin-and-irving-in-oxford/#comment-250672 donpaskini Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:17:04 +0000 http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2007/11/26/griffin-and-irving-in-oxford/#comment-250672 "If the Union (or any other private club) wanted to invite you to speak, but Antonia denied your right to be invited to speak" The word you are looking for is not 'denied' (Antonia doesn't have the power to deny people the opportunity to speak at the Oxford Union), but 'oppose'. "then you wouldn’t have freedom of speech—unless “freedom of speech” meant “freedom to say things Antonia approves of in places where Antonia permits you to say them”." Again, this suggests Antonia has powers which she (unfortunately ;) does not have. If you believe, as I do, in a right to freedom of speech, then you should also support the right to protest, which is what Antonia and others were doing. Otherwise, you end up in the position where Griffin and Irving have a right to speak wherever they are invited to do so, but other people don't have the right to protest against this. Which is a somewhat less than absolute commitment to free expression. “If the Union (or any other private club) wanted to invite you to speak, but Antonia denied your right to be invited to speak”

The word you are looking for is not ‘denied’ (Antonia doesn’t have the power to deny people the opportunity to speak at the Oxford Union), but ‘oppose’.

“then you wouldn’t have freedom of speech—unless “freedom of speech” meant “freedom to say things Antonia approves of in places where Antonia permits you to say them”.”

Again, this suggests Antonia has powers which she (unfortunately ;) does not have.

If you believe, as I do, in a right to freedom of speech, then you should also support the right to protest, which is what Antonia and others were doing. Otherwise, you end up in the position where Griffin and Irving have a right to speak wherever they are invited to do so, but other people don’t have the right to protest against this.

Which is a somewhat less than absolute commitment to free expression.

]]> By: PooterGeek http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2007/11/26/griffin-and-irving-in-oxford/#comment-250170 PooterGeek Wed, 28 Nov 2007 01:36:45 +0000 http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2007/11/26/griffin-and-irving-in-oxford/#comment-250170 "The Union haven’t invited me to speak. Do I have freedom of speech or not?" If the Union (or any other private club) wanted to invite you to speak, but Antonia denied your right to be invited to speak (as above) then you wouldn't have freedom of speech---unless "freedom of speech" meant "freedom to say things Antonia approves of in places where Antonia permits you to say them". “The Union haven’t invited me to speak. Do I have freedom of speech or not?”

If the Union (or any other private club) wanted to invite you to speak, but Antonia denied your right to be invited to speak (as above) then you wouldn’t have freedom of speech—unless “freedom of speech” meant “freedom to say things Antonia approves of in places where Antonia permits you to say them”.

]]> By: Alex http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2007/11/26/griffin-and-irving-in-oxford/#comment-249841 Alex Tue, 27 Nov 2007 13:25:30 +0000 http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2007/11/26/griffin-and-irving-in-oxford/#comment-249841 Epsilon: "The President responsible for this comes, I believe, from Magdalen- a college with an imperialist and Unionist record hidden under a privileged, dilettante cloak." What a beautiful example of both: 1) Genetic fallcy 2) Enduring properties fallacy Magdalen has no current imperialist and Unionist agenda, and even if it did, there is no reason to think Tryl is that sort of character anyway. The amount of garbage spewed about Oxford and Oxford students I have seen surrounding this issue has been breathtaking. Epsilon:

“The President responsible for this comes, I believe, from Magdalen- a college with an imperialist and Unionist record hidden under a privileged, dilettante cloak.”

What a beautiful example of both:

1) Genetic fallcy

2) Enduring properties fallacy

Magdalen has no current imperialist and Unionist agenda, and even if it did, there is no reason to think Tryl is that sort of character anyway.

The amount of garbage spewed about Oxford and Oxford students I have seen surrounding this issue has been breathtaking.

]]> By: Roger Thornhill http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2007/11/26/griffin-and-irving-in-oxford/#comment-249799 Roger Thornhill Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:14:31 +0000 http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2007/11/26/griffin-and-irving-in-oxford/#comment-249799 I know pooter geek has hit this one already but "But I would just point out that having the right to freedom of speech doesn’t mean having the right to be invited to speak at a private members’ club." This is a non-sequitur. The private club has the right to invite, nobody has the "right to be invited". What you are actually trying to say, but hiding it in the way you mis-say it (for that would actually reveal the unpleasant truth of the stance), is you want to have the right to disinvite against the wishes of both the speaker and the club. I know pooter geek has hit this one already but

“But I would just point out that having the right to freedom of speech doesn’t mean having the right to be invited to speak at a private members’ club.”

This is a non-sequitur. The private club has the right to invite, nobody has the “right to be invited”. What you are actually trying to say, but hiding it in the way you mis-say it (for that would actually reveal the unpleasant truth of the stance), is you want to have the right to disinvite against the wishes of both the speaker and the club.

]]> By: Bob Doney http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2007/11/26/griffin-and-irving-in-oxford/#comment-249743 Bob Doney Tue, 27 Nov 2007 09:53:47 +0000 http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2007/11/26/griffin-and-irving-in-oxford/#comment-249743 I found last night's news very nostalgic. Lots of the great unwashed shouting and hollering and waving banners and breaking doors and locks, all in the cause of stopping free speech as far as I could make out. "Those were the days, my friend, we thought they'd never end". Apparently they didn't after all. I found last night’s news very nostalgic. Lots of the great unwashed shouting and hollering and waving banners and breaking doors and locks, all in the cause of stopping free speech as far as I could make out.

“Those were the days, my friend, we thought they’d never end”. Apparently they didn’t after all.

]]> By: jdc http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2007/11/26/griffin-and-irving-in-oxford/#comment-249733 jdc Tue, 27 Nov 2007 09:33:18 +0000 http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2007/11/26/griffin-and-irving-in-oxford/#comment-249733 "PooterGeek | 26 November 2007 2:42 pm “I would just point out that having the right to freedom of speech doesn’t mean having the right to be invited to speak at a private members’ club.” If you did then you’d be wrong" The Union haven't invited me to speak. Do I have freedom of speech or not? “PooterGeek | 26 November 2007 2:42 pm
“I would just point out that having the right to freedom of speech doesn’t mean having the right to be invited to speak at a private members’ club.”

If you did then you’d be wrong”

The Union haven’t invited me to speak. Do I have freedom of speech or not?

]]> By: sas http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2007/11/26/griffin-and-irving-in-oxford/#comment-249357 sas Mon, 26 Nov 2007 23:28:15 +0000 http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2007/11/26/griffin-and-irving-in-oxford/#comment-249357 The only way to have a useful debate on freedom of speech is to test the extremes. It's no point getting e.g. pro-democracy campaigners who've spent years locked up, because obviously everyone will agree freedom of speech is worth having. The aim is to challenge our views on free speech- do we believe that everyone has the right? What are the limits? Are those limits fair- if we set those limits, can they be turned around and used against us? The only way to have a useful debate on freedom of speech is to test the extremes. It’s no point getting e.g. pro-democracy campaigners who’ve spent years locked up, because obviously everyone will agree freedom of speech is worth having. The aim is to challenge our views on free speech- do we believe that everyone has the right? What are the limits? Are those limits fair- if we set those limits, can they be turned around and used against us?

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