<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Opting out of abortion</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2008/02/29/opting-out-of-abortion/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2008/02/29/opting-out-of-abortion/</link>
	<description>Thoughts of Antonia, Labour activist and feminist in Oxford</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 06:21:28 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1</generator>
		<item>
		<title>By: Kate</title>
		<link>http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2008/02/29/opting-out-of-abortion/#comment-354859</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:39:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2008/02/29/opting-out-of-abortion/#comment-354859</guid>
		<description>Oh to add on that, I've been brought up in a Chrisitain family, and abortion came after the bible was written, so how can God say it's murder? You people shouldn't make up crap!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh to add on that, I&#8217;ve been brought up in a Chrisitain family, and abortion came after the bible was written, so how can God say it&#8217;s murder? You people shouldn&#8217;t make up crap!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kate</title>
		<link>http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2008/02/29/opting-out-of-abortion/#comment-354853</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:37:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2008/02/29/opting-out-of-abortion/#comment-354853</guid>
		<description>I don't know if people are for or against abortion on here, but what I do know is, it is not FOR a fact murder, that is extremely ridiculous! It's just a mass of cells until it is fully developed by at which stage a doctor would not perform the abortion! It also does not say in the bible anywhere that abortion is against the law! Who are you to judge a women or young girl for that matter! You're so quick to judge and point a finger, but do you actually have any idea what they're going through? Do you think they actually enjoy having to go through it? It doesn't help when you have people who think they're so perfect saying "keep the baby" "give it up for adoption" "abortion is murder" well I don't see any of you voting to look after they baby, cloth it, feed it for the next 18 years! So just why don't you just skip the part where you pretend to be righteous!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know if people are for or against abortion on here, but what I do know is, it is not FOR a fact murder, that is extremely ridiculous! It&#8217;s just a mass of cells until it is fully developed by at which stage a doctor would not perform the abortion! It also does not say in the bible anywhere that abortion is against the law! Who are you to judge a women or young girl for that matter! You&#8217;re so quick to judge and point a finger, but do you actually have any idea what they&#8217;re going through? Do you think they actually enjoy having to go through it? It doesn&#8217;t help when you have people who think they&#8217;re so perfect saying &#8220;keep the baby&#8221; &#8220;give it up for adoption&#8221; &#8220;abortion is murder&#8221; well I don&#8217;t see any of you voting to look after they baby, cloth it, feed it for the next 18 years! So just why don&#8217;t you just skip the part where you pretend to be righteous!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: pj</title>
		<link>http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2008/02/29/opting-out-of-abortion/#comment-346482</link>
		<dc:creator>pj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 15:34:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2008/02/29/opting-out-of-abortion/#comment-346482</guid>
		<description>Just thinking - it'd be worth your while in a professional capacity having a word with the family planning people in Oxford - they tell me they are not impressed by the long delays from referral to procedure for abortions and this might explain part of it - speed of referral is very important both early on in pregancy when the method used very much depends on the gestation, and in the limited period after foetal anomaly scanning at around 20wks when there is a limited window before the time limit on abortion (I seem to recall that Oxford has quite an early limit, something like 16wks and everyone else must be referred straight to Marie Stopes).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just thinking - it&#8217;d be worth your while in a professional capacity having a word with the family planning people in Oxford - they tell me they are not impressed by the long delays from referral to procedure for abortions and this might explain part of it - speed of referral is very important both early on in pregancy when the method used very much depends on the gestation, and in the limited period after foetal anomaly scanning at around 20wks when there is a limited window before the time limit on abortion (I seem to recall that Oxford has quite an early limit, something like 16wks and everyone else must be referred straight to Marie Stopes).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: pj</title>
		<link>http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2008/02/29/opting-out-of-abortion/#comment-345821</link>
		<dc:creator>pj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 18:13:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2008/02/29/opting-out-of-abortion/#comment-345821</guid>
		<description>Hmm, I don't buy that explanation - I know at least some of the O&#38;G consultants at the JR aren't keen on abortion anyway - although some, particularly Filipino, theatre staff are opposed to abortion they always seem able to get enough people (it doesn't take long) - I reckon there's some institutional inertia going on - why bother providing a service if you don't have to and some senior members of staff aren't keen.

In terms of new doctors, most junior doctors don't get anywhere near the theatre so it is only registrars that you need - and if you can't get enough O&#38;G registrars prepared to carry out abortions then the whole NHS service provision is in trouble.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm, I don&#8217;t buy that explanation - I know at least some of the O&amp;G consultants at the JR aren&#8217;t keen on abortion anyway - although some, particularly Filipino, theatre staff are opposed to abortion they always seem able to get enough people (it doesn&#8217;t take long) - I reckon there&#8217;s some institutional inertia going on - why bother providing a service if you don&#8217;t have to and some senior members of staff aren&#8217;t keen.</p>
<p>In terms of new doctors, most junior doctors don&#8217;t get anywhere near the theatre so it is only registrars that you need - and if you can&#8217;t get enough O&amp;G registrars prepared to carry out abortions then the whole NHS service provision is in trouble.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2008/02/29/opting-out-of-abortion/#comment-330745</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Mar 2008 14:44:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2008/02/29/opting-out-of-abortion/#comment-330745</guid>
		<description>I think pragmatically we have to accept that no sane person would do something they considered to be taking a life and causing harm, even if they were paid. 

Whether it's correct to assume performing an abortion is taking a life and causing harm is a difficult question of personal conscience. 

If a given doctor rationalizes abortion as wrong and they object because they would rather do other medical work, we have to respect their decision in that instance. 

Perhaps the NHS should implement a system whereby trainee doctors can express that preference early on, and then not work in an area of medicine in a role where they would be asked to perform abortions. I think there is plenty of room for accommodation, and I would not like to see doctors compelled to compromise their morals or risk losing their job, because that will lead to a stressed and unhappy workforce.

It's not the role of the government or the NHS to dictate a given morality to either the doctors or the patients who they treat. 

As long as there are some doctors who will perform abortions, the patients will have to travel to them, though it would also make sense for the NHS to manage their staff such that they have a team of doctors willing to perform abortions at each hospital with the technical facilities to perform the procedure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think pragmatically we have to accept that no sane person would do something they considered to be taking a life and causing harm, even if they were paid. </p>
<p>Whether it&#8217;s correct to assume performing an abortion is taking a life and causing harm is a difficult question of personal conscience. </p>
<p>If a given doctor rationalizes abortion as wrong and they object because they would rather do other medical work, we have to respect their decision in that instance. </p>
<p>Perhaps the NHS should implement a system whereby trainee doctors can express that preference early on, and then not work in an area of medicine in a role where they would be asked to perform abortions. I think there is plenty of room for accommodation, and I would not like to see doctors compelled to compromise their morals or risk losing their job, because that will lead to a stressed and unhappy workforce.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not the role of the government or the NHS to dictate a given morality to either the doctors or the patients who they treat. </p>
<p>As long as there are some doctors who will perform abortions, the patients will have to travel to them, though it would also make sense for the NHS to manage their staff such that they have a team of doctors willing to perform abortions at each hospital with the technical facilities to perform the procedure.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: tim f</title>
		<link>http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2008/02/29/opting-out-of-abortion/#comment-322650</link>
		<dc:creator>tim f</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 14:33:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2008/02/29/opting-out-of-abortion/#comment-322650</guid>
		<description>You'll find it difficult to find an OT passage about when life begins without taking it pretty far out of context. There are three verses usually quoted and they all speak about God's omniscience NOT about when life begins - ie the implication is God knows us before we're even conceived, when it's clear we cannot be a person. If God knows us before we're even conceived, of course He knows us when we're in the womb too, but that doesn't mean very much.

Before abortion became a political hot potato, OT scholars were fairly united in agreeing that the Hebrew understanding of when life began was at first breath - therefore at birth. Look up the word "nephesh", also Gen 2:7, 1 Kings 17: 17-24 &#38; Ezekiel 37: 8-10. (Romans 8: 9-11 and James 2: 26 play on this concept,too.)

Also bear in mind that if people were fighting and caused a fetus to miscarry, the punishment was a fine, whereas if a woman was killed the penalty was death. Yet despite this evidence some people are keen to take tiny passages from Isaiah, Jeremiah and Psalms out of context to claim that a fetus and human being are direct equivalents. If a fetus was a person, wouldn't "a life for a life" apply here too?

It's also worth noting that there are thousands of laws in the OT but nothing specifically about abortion. And abortion was certainly practiced back in them days. The Assyrians, who after all lived right next to the Israelites and had a bit of a set-to with them on a few occasions, had a law dating from the 12th century BC. With other serious offences (and I would think if abortion was equivalent to murder then it'd count as serious) there is a provision forbidding it even if it is something not even practised by the Israelites but only by their neighbours.

Personally, as a Christian I'm sick of prosperity-gospel-spouting Americans claiming ownership of the Bible then distorting it to support their prejudices and lifestyles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;ll find it difficult to find an OT passage about when life begins without taking it pretty far out of context. There are three verses usually quoted and they all speak about God&#8217;s omniscience NOT about when life begins - ie the implication is God knows us before we&#8217;re even conceived, when it&#8217;s clear we cannot be a person. If God knows us before we&#8217;re even conceived, of course He knows us when we&#8217;re in the womb too, but that doesn&#8217;t mean very much.</p>
<p>Before abortion became a political hot potato, OT scholars were fairly united in agreeing that the Hebrew understanding of when life began was at first breath - therefore at birth. Look up the word &#8220;nephesh&#8221;, also Gen 2:7, 1 Kings 17: 17-24 &amp; Ezekiel 37: 8-10. (Romans 8: 9-11 and James 2: 26 play on this concept,too.)</p>
<p>Also bear in mind that if people were fighting and caused a fetus to miscarry, the punishment was a fine, whereas if a woman was killed the penalty was death. Yet despite this evidence some people are keen to take tiny passages from Isaiah, Jeremiah and Psalms out of context to claim that a fetus and human being are direct equivalents. If a fetus was a person, wouldn&#8217;t &#8220;a life for a life&#8221; apply here too?</p>
<p>It&#8217;s also worth noting that there are thousands of laws in the OT but nothing specifically about abortion. And abortion was certainly practiced back in them days. The Assyrians, who after all lived right next to the Israelites and had a bit of a set-to with them on a few occasions, had a law dating from the 12th century BC. With other serious offences (and I would think if abortion was equivalent to murder then it&#8217;d count as serious) there is a provision forbidding it even if it is something not even practised by the Israelites but only by their neighbours.</p>
<p>Personally, as a Christian I&#8217;m sick of prosperity-gospel-spouting Americans claiming ownership of the Bible then distorting it to support their prejudices and lifestyles.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: jdc</title>
		<link>http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2008/02/29/opting-out-of-abortion/#comment-322605</link>
		<dc:creator>jdc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 12:12:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2008/02/29/opting-out-of-abortion/#comment-322605</guid>
		<description>Well, it would generally be a combination of the Old Testament language which is fairly clear about when life starts, and therefore what ending one is, and the more modern ethicists (much easier for Catholics, point at the Pope having said it and that's the message of Christianity).

If you're looking for a specific Jesus statement, you won't get one, but then you won't get one on many ethical issues. There's plenty of text indicating the concept was strongly frowned upon by the early church as soon as the early 2nd Century, though. Since 1st Century BC Jewish ethicists said much the same thing, it would seem odd to believe there was a hundred year change of heart which was then reversed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, it would generally be a combination of the Old Testament language which is fairly clear about when life starts, and therefore what ending one is, and the more modern ethicists (much easier for Catholics, point at the Pope having said it and that&#8217;s the message of Christianity).</p>
<p>If you&#8217;re looking for a specific Jesus statement, you won&#8217;t get one, but then you won&#8217;t get one on many ethical issues. There&#8217;s plenty of text indicating the concept was strongly frowned upon by the early church as soon as the early 2nd Century, though. Since 1st Century BC Jewish ethicists said much the same thing, it would seem odd to believe there was a hundred year change of heart which was then reversed.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: tim f</title>
		<link>http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2008/02/29/opting-out-of-abortion/#comment-322192</link>
		<dc:creator>tim f</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 00:31:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2008/02/29/opting-out-of-abortion/#comment-322192</guid>
		<description>Do you think there would be an opt-out if no Christians opposed abortion?

I'd also dispute the idea that Christianity defines abortion as murder &#38; I'd love to see you provide biblical evidence for that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do you think there would be an opt-out if no Christians opposed abortion?</p>
<p>I&#8217;d also dispute the idea that Christianity defines abortion as murder &amp; I&#8217;d love to see you provide biblical evidence for that.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: jdc</title>
		<link>http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2008/02/29/opting-out-of-abortion/#comment-321891</link>
		<dc:creator>jdc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Mar 2008 15:22:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2008/02/29/opting-out-of-abortion/#comment-321891</guid>
		<description>"Exactly the same argument applies here, except this time it’s Christianity so doctors get away with it."

Erm, to a significant extent the growth in conscience objectors is due to a steadily increasing number of Muslim doctors.

I'd also disagree that there's an 'exact mirror' between being prevented from wearing religious dress, and being required to undertake acts your religion defines as murder, but hey ho.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Exactly the same argument applies here, except this time it’s Christianity so doctors get away with it.&#8221;</p>
<p>Erm, to a significant extent the growth in conscience objectors is due to a steadily increasing number of Muslim doctors.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d also disagree that there&#8217;s an &#8216;exact mirror&#8217; between being prevented from wearing religious dress, and being required to undertake acts your religion defines as murder, but hey ho.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: tim f</title>
		<link>http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2008/02/29/opting-out-of-abortion/#comment-321328</link>
		<dc:creator>tim f</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Mar 2008 00:07:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2008/02/29/opting-out-of-abortion/#comment-321328</guid>
		<description>I agree with these people in principle, but in practice I imagine if doctors opposed to abortion were forced to perform them, they'd be more likely to stall or try to sway the woman's decision than if they can refer to another doctor.

In this case, though, it seems that the possibility of opting out is making it more difficult for women to get an abortion if that's what they want. What if a young woman living with her parents didn't want them to know she had had an abortion? Wouldn't it be much more difficult if she'd had to get the procedure done in London? A common-sense solution would be to make sure that in teaching hospitals there are enough non-student doctors able to perform the procedure that they can guarantee they'll be able to cater for people in situations where they require the procedure done locally. Maybe this is already the case - doesn't seem a complicated idea and the concept of planning should not be alien to the NHS!

Oh, and this seems to mirror exactly the case of the schoolteacher who wouldn't remove her head covering. It was argued that she was working in a public service job and her exercising religious conscience prevented her from doing aspects of her job. (I disagree that it stopped her being a good teacher, but that's what was claimed.) She was sacked. Exactly the same argument applies here, except this time it's Christianity so doctors get away with it.

Ultimately I think the test is in both cases if allowing workers to exercise their conscience freely has any impact on public service users. If so, it's not acceptable. If a way can possibly be found that it doesn't (and it's the employer's responsibility to find that way if it exists) then the worker should be given as much freedom as possible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with these people in principle, but in practice I imagine if doctors opposed to abortion were forced to perform them, they&#8217;d be more likely to stall or try to sway the woman&#8217;s decision than if they can refer to another doctor.</p>
<p>In this case, though, it seems that the possibility of opting out is making it more difficult for women to get an abortion if that&#8217;s what they want. What if a young woman living with her parents didn&#8217;t want them to know she had had an abortion? Wouldn&#8217;t it be much more difficult if she&#8217;d had to get the procedure done in London? A common-sense solution would be to make sure that in teaching hospitals there are enough non-student doctors able to perform the procedure that they can guarantee they&#8217;ll be able to cater for people in situations where they require the procedure done locally. Maybe this is already the case - doesn&#8217;t seem a complicated idea and the concept of planning should not be alien to the NHS!</p>
<p>Oh, and this seems to mirror exactly the case of the schoolteacher who wouldn&#8217;t remove her head covering. It was argued that she was working in a public service job and her exercising religious conscience prevented her from doing aspects of her job. (I disagree that it stopped her being a good teacher, but that&#8217;s what was claimed.) She was sacked. Exactly the same argument applies here, except this time it&#8217;s Christianity so doctors get away with it.</p>
<p>Ultimately I think the test is in both cases if allowing workers to exercise their conscience freely has any impact on public service users. If so, it&#8217;s not acceptable. If a way can possibly be found that it doesn&#8217;t (and it&#8217;s the employer&#8217;s responsibility to find that way if it exists) then the worker should be given as much freedom as possible.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
